There are times when I will read something on the internet and it triggers a desire to respond. Usually it is to add some extra info or moderation. Then I get flamed. Or I feel like I have been flamed. And I want to take a stand and argue out the issue. And I know that it will just get worse. It is the Internet after all. Anyone that writes in a way that triggers my defenses is not going to enter into a rational discussion via text and clear up misunderstandings. This is assuming that the other person isn’t getting a jolt out of setting off a flame war and this is their version of entertainment.
So much of what we read is filtered through our own perceptions and the same goes for what we write and other people reading it. I feel I am being clear in what I am saying and then someone comes up with, what is for me, an off the wall reaction.
I am very sorry when this happens and am willing to apologize but it seems if I apologize and still maintain that I feel I know what I am talking about, it is taken as more fuel for the flame war. The best thing is to just walk away and it is so hard. I hate the feeling that I have left a misunderstanding out there or something where I look bad because the other person twisted what I said and I haven’t refuted them.
There was this thing on Youtube about the enneagram and 7s. It was a woman saying how she needs to work on boundaries and learning to say no. Someone responded that she isn’t a 7 she is a 2 and to be careful because mistyping can cause such a problem. They were very direct and it felt like it was stated as “You are wrong, I am right.”
I don’t like that approach. If I had the same opinion as this person, I would have said something like it sounds like her problem is a type 2 based issue and maybe she isn’t actually a 7 but a 2. There is no way you can tell from a 9 minute clip. I don’t believe that anyone can be typed that way. You might catch behavior that matches their type and be right, but you might catch behavior that doesn’t match their type and be wrong. And I agree with them that mistyping can cause huge problems.
This person then stated that “7s are typically gregarious, witty and impulsive.” Yes they typically are. That is their defense mechanism. The process that is going on in the video is one where the defense mechanism is usually put aside so there is a good chance she isn’t showing that side. I get so damn frustrated by people that “know” the enneagram and then put people in type boxes and believe someone who is a 7 can’t have problems saying no and can’t have problems that aren’t 7 type problems.
I am not a typical 7. I have a depressive side that, well… I guess a work that could be used would be “allows” me to access and see my darker side unlike most 7s. I also have parts of me that are very 2, and 4, and 5, and 8, and… you get the idea. The entire enneagram is in each of us but there is one area we tend to use the most. That is our type. That does not mean we don’t have other ways of doing things too. I have questioned my 7-ness because I am so atypical. And I have found that while I have many behaviors that can be associated with other types (especially the 5), they are based on motivations that come from 7. So I stick with 7. I feel those people that insist you are another type don’t really know a lot about the enneagram and are trying to get you to fit what they know. The people that suggest that you look at a particular type for a set of reasons, I feel have a better grasp of the enneagram. There is no such thing as everyone fitting into 9 or 27 types. We share similarities and I feel the enneagram explains this and gives us other things to look at and look for. It does not limit us to only those similarities and it is being used wrong if that is the case. I don’t know a lot about it. I have only been working with it for five years. I have only gone to some of the classes. I haven’t read all the books. But I have explored different approaches and I have worked with it and I have observed my world through it. I feel my opinions are mostly right and there are places where they need to change when I find out more info. I don’t think I push my opinions onto others but offer them as possibilities when someone asks. That is what I try to do. I feel each person needs to decide for themselves and if I can give info, that is my job.
I can be a very typical 7 with the wit, and the energy and the entertainment and the addictiveness. And it costs me and I would like to find a deeper version of life. One that feels less empty. And that is not typically 7 but where 7s grow.
Yes, the issue is something that is very 2-like. Her issue is she has practice with 125 patients when it is more reasonable to have something like 75 and she is trying to learn to say no and back off from working so much. Coming from a 7 perspective, it could be that what the problem is that she is hitting the 7s “More Is Better,” and “What is the Next One Going To Be Like” buttons. As a 7, I love helping. But if I can’t, I am only frustrated. Helping makes me feel great. A type 2 typically needs to help. Their self worth is based on helping and then deserving the love and care they get. If this woman found her patients to be fascinating and she feels she can really make a difference in their lives and she gets exposed to interesting things, then saying no would be hard. It goes against a 7-like drive. I am not saying that is what is going on but nothing I saw in the video opposes this idea. I didn’t hear anything that said she felt she would be worth less or that she was fighting her self worth if she said no more often. That would support the 2 side.
Writing this out has helped calm me down from my need to defend myself to this unknown person. I still put a response comment. I can’t help it. I tried to do the back down and back away thing. I don’t have a problem letting them win but I do have a problem having my on-line identity blackened and letting it stand. I wished them luck with the book they are writing. I suspect they will think I am being sarcastic but I hope they take it in the way I meant it. I wonder what their type is. I am too deep in it but it seems they are reacting from an unhealthy level.
Well, turns out they couldn’t let me have the last word and had to say something. But their reply feels like they are pointing fingers at me that are the same ones I could point at them so there is no need to go any farther. They can have the last word. It is still annoying but I will just mentally pat them on the head and go about my way. I am not sure what the final panel (see link) is really stating, but this is a way I developed to let things go. Kind of like smiling and waving at someone that has cut me off on the highway. It becomes their problem, not mine.
Grrr, but they are still wrong and propagating that wrongness. grrr. Stupid Internet. 
If I may point out…
One of the ways to fix the internet is to remove comments from youTube. I love youTube, but it’s the only forum that comes close to IMDB for bigotry and crackpottery (and that’s even in comparison with fanfic forums).
Yeah. It’s got a ways to go before it hits IMDB levels, but yeah.
And once again, xkcd is right there with you.
http://www.xkcd.com/386/
That is where I got my subject line.
So many people on my FL posted that particular comic when it came up that I was sure most everyone has felt this way.
xkcd can be so dead on sometimes.
Yup.
Beat me by 30 minutes, must waste more time at work by checking LJ more often…
Good for you not feeding the trolls.
I’m not so sure that even “most” 7′s are blind to their dark side. I have a particular problem being constantly “called out” as a non-7 on the online boards because I’m all too in touch with that….but really, I’ve seen so many 7′s in real life go through huge depressions and varying degrees of mental breakdown. I think it’s more that the outside world misunderstands a 7′s internal landscape.
As for the 2 question, I can appear twoish if one looks at the way I behave with my romantic partners. I’d go to the ends of the earth to help someone close to me, but that doesn’t mean I WANT them to need my help, like a 2 would, in order to feel appreciated or whatever. But yes, I would agree that I can dramatically overextend myself for someone I’m very close to. On the other hand, as a social last, I’d never do the same for MOST people or any particular group. My boundaries are very clear, with the general public.
I’ve noticed that social and sexual 7′s can seem twoish (sexuals in the area of intimate relationships, socials for the good of their group) but you mentioned having a twoish side as well. How would you say yours manifests, as a self pres 7?
I have met 7s that are very in touch with that dark cavern they get stuck in. I have also met 7s that have never experienced depression and while they still do the running from the dark, they don’t seem to have the intimate relationship with it that you and I have. I have also met other types that haven’t experienced depression so I think that is a key factor. Some people do and some just have no experience in which to relate to. I don’t think I have met enough people that have identified as 7s to have an idea if “most” is an appropriate word or not. I only have the literature to base any theories off of. 5s on the other hand, my life is swarming with them. I appear to be very 5ish in my behaviors and methods and have done a lot of thinking about being a 5 or 7. I still fall out on the 7 side because of my fears and motivations. I just don’t care about competency that much.
I agree that the outside world misunderstands a 7′s internal landscape. Probably because so many 7s are so good at not showing it. What worries me is the enneagram teachers that don’t seem to know the 7′s internal landscape but understand the other types. It might be because typically 7s don’t show up for this kind of work so they don’t have experience with 7s that are willing to show the dark side.
I manifest parts of every single type. As a class went in depth on each type, I could match up a core tendency of mine that matched each and every one. The way 2 shows up for me is that I love-love-love riding to the rescue. If someone has a problem in something I am good at, I am tickled to stick my nose in and help them solve it. But when I run out of ideas or things aren’t working, I give up, let go and walk away. In a romantic relationship, I can take care of my other as well as or better than I take care of myself. But it is very much related to food-sleep-dress warm type of taking care.
Since I am so introspective and can see what and how I approach things, I use these skills on others and can see through some of their thought processes (when they are willing to share them with me) and point out where they are fooling themselves and where they are really seeing what is there. I think this insight can seem very 2ish as well.
I thought you might be interested in the video that set all this off. It is a Thomas Condon video of working with a 7. If you want to see it, you can find it here http://youtube.com/watch?v=zcp_Ea9i9rw.
I agree that it is not a good example of a typical 7 or 7 like behavior. It does seem like 2 like behavior. I just don’t think that means she is a 2 and not a 7. Can I just throw a tantrum and stamp my feet now about people that insist that you have the be the type that your behavior matches. Grrrr. I think that is a danger of teaching the enneagram out of books and such. It is not that cut and dried. How the hell can you type someone off a 9 minute clip or a few statements on a board. Ok the tantrum is not over but I have most of it vented. Stupid people *pout*
I agree that there’s no way to tell whether the woman is truly a 7, 2, or whatever from such a short video clip. I don’t personally have the same kind of issues with boundaries that she does, but I can easily see how what she’s referring to could be a 7 problem (taking on too many clients).
It’s interesting that your caretaking shows up in the areas of “food-sleep-dress-warm”. This is something I’ve noticed in alot of self pres firsts of various E-types.
“Since I am so introspective and can see what and how I approach things, I use these skills on others and can see through some of their thought processes (when they are willing to share them with me) and point out where they are fooling themselves and where they are really seeing what is there. I think this insight can seem very 2ish as well.”
Lol, I do the same thing. I’m everyone’s amateur phsychiatrist. I also have a strong line to 5, particularly with the over-analyzation, pursuit of knowledge, and hermitizing. What really disqualifies 5 for me is that I’m not very good at detaching from my emotions, and am too much of an optimist, in general.
One thing that sometimes helps is to recognize that, once an issue has come up, what has gone before needs to be measured against what is coming next.
Keep in mind that there are some folks who just won’t listen to what you have to say; they aren’t there for discussion, they are there to be Right. And nothing will change their mind about how Right they are.
But even if folks aren’t assholes like that, they can still be stubborn or misunderstand what you mean, or just have a world view so incompatible with yours that there’s no sound basis for communication.
It’s useful to recognize when “what comes next” is just “more fighting”, and if fighting isn’t what you want, there’s not much choice but to walk away. (It’s useful… but not always possible. That’s why I didn’t say “it’s best”
. )