Begging forgiveness vs asking permission
There is this idea out there that it is easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission. This works completely counter to how I deal with things. In dealing with me it is considerably better to do the asking of permission or at least tell me what is going on rather than to do something and tell me about it after the fact. I am an information junkie. If I am told ahead of time, I can make room for it in my world view, I can process it, I have options. If it is told to me fait accompli, then all my power has been taken away from me, I have no way to change the way I think about something to make it a good thing, all my options are over. I have to fight instead of compromise or prepare to deal with the way things will be.
I have been hit with this a couple of times in the last few weeks. In one case, I was kept in the dark because something was hidden from someone else and I was just downstream from that. There wasn’t a way I could have been told beforehand. I understand the reasons for keeping the secret and I agree with them. I am upset about the approach of how this information came to light, that is all.
In another case, I watched someone else use the forgiveness vs permission in buying something. That is between him and his wife and that is how they do things. I had something similar done to me and I was very pissed. It was very manipulative and passive aggressive.
I also had someone do something he should have told me about any time before it happened but instead he told me about it afterwards. If I had know about it before, I would have wished him the best of luck and prepared myself for the consequences. I would have been able to take care of myself and know what was going on. Instead, I am left in the dark for a week and then get casually told when I ask if he was somewhere else. Being left in the dark during this time has its own issues. Being told after the fact made me feel powerless in this circumstance. Like all my options have been taken away from me. That I am not trusted to be myself and react in the way that I normally do. That it was assumed I would act like a “normal” person and be upset. Instead I am upset and royally pissed by the way this was handled. I don’t know why I would ever trust him again. If my reactions are so scary, he felt he couldn’t even let me know something was happening, how in the world am I ever going to trust that I will be informed on things that really matter.
The only thing worse than this concept of begging forgiveness instead of asking permission is hiding something from me and having me accidentally find it out later.
I work hard on being approachable. On having smooth reactions to being told things that would upset “normal” people. On being workable and willing to compromise and willing to accept and understand. This is so I can get the information I feel I need. I am not a “normal” person and while I do have some (if not a lot) of reactions like a “normal” person (we are all human) I resent being treated like a “normal” person. I do what I can to show who I really am so that people don’t make this mistake. I realize that they are making the mistake because of their issues, not mine but I don’t what to have to deal with the results of their actions. The less I care about someone, the less this matters. Unfortunately, the examples I have are all about people I care very much about.
I am *so* with you on this!
Beyond all you’ve said though, to me, it’s also a matter of ethics. Even when I can acknowledge the necessity of doing things in (what I feel is) such an underhanded and backwards way (and, even when I have done so myself – and not been proud of it at all), there is a basic unfairness. Passive/aggressive is the least of it. It says a great deal, as well, about trust, respect for the person who’s being gotten around this way, honesty, etc. Since these are all things I highly value in my friends (and would like to think are valued in me), having this sort of behavior occur on the personal level feels much more like a betrayal and hurts/angers/annoys a great deal than when it occurs out in the world at large, at work or wherever.
Anyhoo, that’s my take on things. And, all that said, have I ever invoked the permission/foregiveness rule. Well, yes. There are times when it’s seemed the only feasible way to accomplish something that needed doing. But, not in the framework of friends/loved ones ’cause . . . well, respect, trust, etc. And, am I proud of myself. No. There is a reason I claim “situational ethics” rather than some broad set-in-stone ideal that I’m quite certain I couldn’t live up to. (However, I do find as time goes by that many times when I think my “situational ethics” will allow me to squeek by on something, I find that my sense of honor and right will not allow it. It’s funny how often I’m surprised to find that I’m more ethical than I think I am. Go figure.)
In some ways it is a matter of ethics just like you describe. That is a good way of explaining my point of view. But the behavior I don’t like is also a useful defense mechanism. And when you are feeling like you need to be defended, then it is understandable to behave this way.
The big problem I have is there is no reason to need to feel defended around me about the things that have set me off. These people are running their own version of reality instead of actually checking in with who I am. And it has caused a situation worse than what they imagined they were avoiding.
I have had many boyfriends in the past (family I can’t do anything about except learn their ways) that have had this as their major defense mechanism. I don’t want that in my life anymore. It has caused a big land mine and someone stepped directly in the middle of it carrying a lot of baggage. Resulting in a LJ post. Check out replies to others and you will get more fun info.
Unfortunately, “normal” people are often taught that it’s easier to not tell someone something than tell them something up front and have it cause problems from the onset. Even tho, it often causes more problems afterwards than it would beforehand.
It sucks. I have to sometimes fight w/ myself to be upfront and get it over in the beginning rather than let it be swept under the rug to be dealt with later, and it comes to bite me on the proverbial arse. *sigh*
There’s also that level of fear involved too….that thing we are taught, “don’t rock the boat, make sure everyone likes you”….that idea of…not exactly conformity, but something a little bit like conformity and something a little bit like wanting to please the other person. Egads, I don’t think I can explain it well here. So, people have a tendency not to be upfront because it might upset the other person and the desire to not be the object of anger…however slight…the need to be liked.
But, you as a person are very very approachable, whereas I am not. Don’t think of it too much that there is fault with you. As you mentioned, it’s their issues, not yours. Unfortunately, it just impacts you too.
I have the same fight w/myself. I don’t like telling people things I don’t think they want to know but I feel like I should. Sometimes it takes me awhile but I think I do it beforehand instead of after. I could totally be self-editing my memories, but that is what I try to do. I don’t like the consequenses of waiting until afterwards.
Actually you are approachable in other ways. I feel I can tell you almost anything and you can handle it. You have strength. People have to be prepared to hear what you really think about something, which may not be what they want to hear, but that is their issue.
If others have been raised the way I was we learn to not be upfront inadvertantly. My parents would ground me if I for got to tell them where I was. Then when I told them what I was doing they would always tell me to come home right away, essentially grounding me. If I’m going to be grounded either way I’m going to do what I want and face the music rather than never get to do anything for the sake of someone else’s peace of mind.
I can understand this but I expect people that are close to me to know that I won’t ground them for both circumstances. And I expect people close to me to live enough of an examined life to know about themselves that they have learned this behavior growing up and can watch for it. Then we can talk about it and find ways of not triggering this type of behavior. Then they can choose to do it or not. I am unwilling to accept it as ok.
I can understand where you are coming from. I work hard not to be the type of person that presents a damned if you do, damned if you don’t circumstance where you might as well do what you want without notification. I expect that to be recognized. I hate being treated like I was someone I am not. I understand mistakes, learning who I am, growing out of it. But if it continues to happen, or if it is something the other person can’t get over, then I am not going to put up with it. It is not fair to me or the other person.
I have had a lot of issues with past boyfriends trying to skate by but just not bring things up and watched it destroy the relationship when it could have been so minor if mentioned and taken care of early. This is something that has hurt me greatly in the past and it is a feature I am trying to avoid in new relationships.
Having lived an examined life and having had sufficent will power to quit smoking, I think you need to realize that not all behavior is instantly self-modifiable simply upon it’s recognition. We don’t reprogram that easily on every issue. Even more so because “Damned if you do. Damned if you don’t” situations do not stop at childhood. Just because you are so certain that you won’t behave that way doesn’t mean their very last girl friend, boss, best friend, family member, was equally capable. I any given day you can meet different people that you can be varying degrees of open with. Keeping that straight and overcoming conditioning isn’t a simple matter.
I was trying to be insightful about how this behavior get’s into people and thereby maybe provide a means towards understanding it, not accepting it as okay.
A lack of compassion can destroy a relationship just as effectively.
You are completely correct. In all your points.
I don’t expect there to be a complete reprogramming upon recognition. But first there has to be recognition. And then there is communication. I am actually worried about someone that does try to do a reprogramming.
People mess up. All the time. It is in our nature. But if you don’t realize you mess up then you can never move forward. That is what I am looking for.
I had a friend that never dealt with problems in our living arrangement. We figured this out. I would look for the problems, come up with a variety of solutions and she would pick one that she could live with. We found away around our ingrained behavior. If you never recognize a behavior pattern as causing a problem, you will never look and therefore never find a solution. There are many ways to solve a problem or get around it.
Different people do need different approaches. That is something I am very aware of and have found that not many people have the skill to approach different people differently. A possible solution to the damned if you do damned if you don’t scenario is for both parties to be aware of it and when it looks like it comes up, mention it. Then you can talk about what triggered the hiding info reaction and work on that level.
I have never found a way to deal with this withdrawal/avoid conflict behavior because I have been the only one willing to try. The other half of the relationship doesn’t see it as a problem until it is too late and by then they are on the run. So I have been burned by it to a point I don’t deal with it well when it first rears its ugly head.
Many times my willingness to show compassion ends up letting the other off the hook so they don’t have to deal with it. I am working on a middle ground or not letting someone who is naturally that way get close to me. I am no more healthy to them than they are to me.
I am sorry if it seemed like I was dumping on you. The behavior is a perfectly acceptable defense mechanism. What I am looking for is someone that wants to learn how to use it at appropriate times, in appropriate ways. Unfortunately, most of the people I have had issues with this about use it to avoid working on it all together.
The Examined Life
The problem with the examined life or dealing with one’s faults/behavior what have you, is that is can be very hard on one’s ego. Right down painful in fact. Because of that there is very strong impetus to avoid such unpleasantness, by being defensive, shifting blame, ignoring anything rather than face ugly truths about oneself. People so frequently have such little self esteem as it is that the punishing process of facing the music about one’s own behavior can be more than they care to bare. Again, not to condone such things, but perhaps to provide some insight into why the desire to make the change may not exist in some people.
Re: The Examined Life
I understand the reasons why and agree with them. You describe them very clearly. This is the sort of thing I am studying right now. I am sorry if it doesn’t seem like I understand these concepts. What you are talking about is very important and why most people don’t live the examined life. It is very necessary for a lot of people. And that is ok.
The point I am aiming at is that I am trying to live the examined life. I am trying to face all those fears and pains and ego blasting issues. I feel it is important.
I don’t look down on people that don’t. I just can’t afford to have them close to me, near and dear to my heart. They aren’t part of the process, they are harmful to the process. They are still worthwhile human beings and people I like as friends. But I need them on the outside of my defense walls, not on the inside. What I am looking for in a partner and in close friends are others that want to and are trying to live their lives with fewer defenses. That are willing to put their egos on the line and grow. People that are willing to look inside themselves. People that can drop some of there defenses when they are not needed and can allow me to drop mine.
One thing that is a danger about hanging around me is that I have a tendency to see through the bullshit and point out things people are avoiding. I can’t help it. For someone that doesn’t want to live the examined life, this is very hard and painful for them. The more I care about some one, the more it happens and I can’t keep quiet about it. It is like watching someone put their finger in a socket and forgetting about the shock so they do it again and again. That is the choice of the people involved and I firmly support them in their choice, but I can’t be too near.
I told one friend going through a divorce that I was still there for her, that I still cared, that I was still a friend but she was not ready to hear the type of things that I would end up saying and I would wait in the wings until she could deal with me again. A year afterwards, she sent me an email saying she was ready. We had a great time hanging out.
Does this make any more sense? You points are good. Others probably are thinking the same things but aren’t bothering to say anything.
Not knowing the circumstances, but just from reading what you’ve written, I’d say you’re a touch off on something.
“Asking permission” implies that the person you are talking to has the power to approve or deny the request. There’s a bit of a difference between that, and simply telling someone something ahead of time in order to give them time to react prior to the completion of the act.
It sounds more like the people you are talking about are presuming that you will react badly, and deciding that since you will, they’d rather you did so after it was already an accomplished fact, so that they could say “well, it’s done now…”
If you are dealing with someone with the authority to condone or deny your actions, then yes, it IS easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Because asking forgiveness allows you to accomplish the goal and deal with the consequences, and asking permission risks that.
BUT – that is entirely different than dealing with people when what you are doing is really giving them a chance to form their own opinions and react accordingly prior to doing something.
I’m sorry you’re going through that right now. I can sympathize – at the moment, I’m rather in your shoes as well with a different “friend” (and I use that term sarcastically) who did something similar to me, but didn’t even have the decency to ask forgiveness.
I hope things get better for you!
*hug*
You are right, it is a bit off because it isn’t exactly a “permission” type of thing. It is just that I have had that phrase used around me in this last week and it sort of fits the ‘don’t tell someone you are doing something, do it, and then let them know’ action sequence. There is also no forgiveness being begged.
There is no permission needed, in most of the cases, it is just knowledge being passed and the other person not wanting to deal with the consequences beforehand. I am just so aggravated because there would have been no consequences beforehand and there are major problems afterwards. I hate it when it could have worked out well and because of a misperception, it has gone badly.
Ready for a little bit of detail? One of the issues is I just found out I have a older half sister on my mother’s side. How’s that for a kicker? I don’t mind being in the dark because I understand and I was a child who wouldn’t have been able to keep my mouth shut. But I really hate how it came out.
As for accomplishing the goal without asking permission, that goal had damn well be important to deal with the consequences of knowingly keeping me in the dark because it isn’t going to be pretty. I wouldn’t say it is easier to beg forgiveness but it might be worth it.
Oh my gosh.
Your mom never struck me as the kind who would keep a secret like that from you for this long.
I can see not telling you as a child – but, um… it’s been a long time since you were a child.
I’m so sorry you are going through this right now.
My whole day has been wrapped up in a similar drama – but not nearly of such great proportions.
I wasn’t given the chance to forgive either. The decision was talked about and made behind my back, then I was informed by email. Neither party felt the least bit bad about doing it to me that way either.
No – I wasn’t kind in my replies. I hope Karma bites them in the ass so hard it leaves permanent teeth marks there.
Sometimes? People just suck.
*hug*
Amen, Sister!!!
Well, I know that, whenever I’ve heard that it’s easier to get forgiveness than permission, it’s always been in a joking context. Sometimes it was serious (“We have to get this done now… we literally can’t wait.” “Well, as they say, it’s easier to get forgiveness than permission.” “Good point; let’s do it.”), but it was always done in a joking manner… and only in a context in which you could reasonably expect forgiveness, and expect that permission would have been granted *if* you’d had the time and resources to obtain it.
I agree with you that, in reality, people should never seek forgiveness rather than permission (except in those extremely rare circumstances where it truly *is* better to act *now*, rather than wait for permission). At the very least, it’s taking you for granted.
I think what people mean when they say it’s easier is that it’s easier for the person doing the asking, no matter how much worse it is for the other person–and it’s easier in the short term, no matter how much better it might be in the long term to do otherwise.